Listen to each interview by clicking on the buttons above.  Determine whether each is an example of de jure or de facto segregation. De Facto:Segregation “by fact” (or tradition); De Jure:Segregation “by law”

Fred Battle

Madge Hopkins

I had a sense of segregation because you couldn’t go in Kress’s and get a hot dog or drink from the fountain, still couldn’t do that, and probably for me the most important thing was I could not sit on the front row at the Carousel Parade. There was always some nice white lady who said, “Put the children up front.” And I knew I was in the back and that somebody was in a condescending way allowing me to move up front as a child to see what was going on in the parade. Pamela Grundy (interviewer) And you felt that condescension even at that time? Madge Hopkins Uh huh. And that entertainment was — pre-Carowinds — was to go to Stoh Park in Belmont and you could only go on Tuesday nights. That was the night for negroes or black folks. … And because when you grow up in a segregated society you’re taught your place and you accept but as time, there comes a time when you realize, “I have no place. You can’t put me in a place.” Pamela Grundy (interviewer) When did that happen for you? When did you begin to notice…? Madge Hopkins Probably the time I got in a fight with Freddy and I had to hit him back, you know, was told, “You can’t hit him back. No, no, don’t hit him.” No. And that was probably eight or nine years old. And the most, and I think probably at one of those Carousel parades when I was about six or seven. Move to the back. Why can’t we stand in the front? Why can’t I have that, go up to that counter and eat in Kress’s like everybody else does? Why can’t I do that?

The community set up, that’s where you had the Varsity Theater, Carolina Theater, in Chapel Hill. Then we had a Rialto Theater in Carrboro, on the main street. That was a black theater. But here again, if it left scars on me, the scars are there for me, it’s the fact that I would have to pass these theaters to go to the Rialto Theater. Or if I went to the Carolina Theater in Durham, I would have to sit up in the balcony, you know. The same thing with the bus, you know, most people that lived in Chapel Hill occasionally went to Durham to do their shopping, that big Sears and Roebuck was in Durham. And here again, you would sit on the back of the bus and go there. Same thing with the restaurants, water fountains, whatever. The theaters, I mean, you had to bypass the theaters and the school. I think it did more damage to me as to make me realize what this thing, this segregation is all about. Because I had to deal with that on a constant [unclear]. And occasionally what we did, we got a person, black person that was real light-skinned. And to fool the system, we got him to go in the theater. And they were unable to detect the difference. Bob Gilgor (interviewer) In a way that was a surrogate victory? Fred Battle In a way it was a surrogate victory, but not the type of victory we were lookin’ for, because we weren’t wanting it to be on the pigmentation of his skin, color. We wanted to have it so that everybody that wanted to go in and be able to observe a movie would have that freedom of choice.

Jeff Black

Right now with my position in student council, we have little committees that we’ve divided up into. I’m head of the race relations committee. Right now we’re working on a project to end de facto segregation in the cafeteria, primarily, because no matter how well we get along in the classroom and in the hallways at lunch time it still seems like everyone sits by their specific race. You have your exceptions to it, but it’s still primarily when you look, that’s what you see. So we’re trying to organize a day now where everyone just tries to reach out and sit with somebody they normally wouldn’t, or sit with somebody of a different race, just somebody that they wouldn’t normally sit with so that they can meet different people. Pamela Grundy (interviewer) Why do you think that happens? Why do you think that shook out that way in the cafeteria? Jeff Black I think it’s just people are more comfortable with things that are similar. Even if they have the same people in their classroom, they just haven’t taken the time out to go out and venture out during lunch or during free time or hang out on the weekends or things like that. I think it’s gotten where it’s isolated in the classroom instead of everyw